CASE CLOSED … what really happened in the 2001 anthrax attacks?

* Stephen Little provided a sworn statement at his deposition held at Ft. Detrick that Dr. Ivins was coming into the lab late and on weekends in late September of 01 and into early October 2001 to check the animals

Posted by DXer on December 15, 2013

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21 Responses to “* Stephen Little provided a sworn statement at his deposition held at Ft. Detrick that Dr. Ivins was coming into the lab late and on weekends in late September of 01 and into early October 2001 to check the animals”

  1. DXer said

    What do the emails that FBI’s Dave Hardy withheld for the past decade show?

    Do they support — or do they contradict — the claims made by US Attorney Taylor at his 2008 press conference announcing the FBI’s “Ivins Theory.”?

  2. DXer said

    As described in Kristi Friend’s civil deposition that was provided under FOIA, she was not available that first week in October 2001. She was detailed to DSD to deal with the thousands of samples coming in every day to DSD.

    A. So this was prior to that. They were already receiving samples from air handling systems in DC from various buildings. There were five buildings that were being monitored.

    They were getting swipe samples from those twice a day. In the beginning, they were getting almost 3,000 samples a day, and they needed more bodies to help do that. So it quickly went to an eight-hours-a-day session, 24-hour operation, seven days a week.

    And the people that were screening those assays, they were dissolve assays; however, they did not know what the organism looked like on a plate. So they needed people like myself to tell them yes or no anthrax is there, whatever, plague is there, so I got detailed to that division to assist them with that.
    So I think it was like October 1st, October 2nd, I got volunteered to go up there. So I stopped working on — Dr. Ivins was still my boss, but I didn’t report to him on a daily basis; I reported to someone in that division.

    Q. The DSD division.
    A. That’s correct. (p. 26)

  3. DXer said

    I agree with Anonymous. I emailed AUSA Lieber for help getting the contemporaneous documents relating to the experiment with the rabbit and she told me I had received all I ever was going to get under FOIA. FOIAs to the FBI in fact have proved a black hole.

    But the evidence provided by USAMRIID over the years demolished the argument Dr. Ivins had no reason to be in the lab. Note in particular the emails from the first week in October 2001. The FBI reviewed these emails. In making an inference of whether the FBI knew about the rabbit experiment, I would rely on the contemporaneous emails. The contemporaneous documentation is detailed and speaks for itself.

    If the GAO wanted to get at who knew what — it would require the internal emails from the investigators.

    There has been a secret investigation by the IC to figure out who screwed up Amerithrax. And at the end of the day there are no secrets.

    For example, a federal undercover did these graphics.

    • DXer said

      In Norfolk, FBI chief says Cole bombing still a priority

      By Tim McGlone
      The Virginian-Pilot
      © January 16, 2014

      More than 13 years have passed since the bombing of the Norfolk-based destroyer Cole, which left 17 sailors dead, but the new director of the FBI said capturing the ringleaders of the attack in Yemen remains a priority. …

      Comey, a 1982 College of William & Mary graduate, served as an assistant U.S. attorney in Richmond, where he was lead prosecutor for the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia.

      “The one thing you should know about us is we never forget,” he said. “We never, ever stop hunting for people responsible for killing or injuring Americans anywhere in the world.

      “Beyond that, I don’t want to talk publicly about what we’re doing.”


      Even Saaed Mohammed, the Karachi student helping Yazid Sufaat and WAFA with procurement of additional equipment, could tell you that there was overlap between the Cole bombing and the highly compartmentalized anthrax program and Fall 2001 anthrax incidents. He was rendered to Jordan in October 2001.

      The earnest and well-meaning former FBI WMD Director Vahid Majidi has publicly written in his September 2013 e-book (marketed to his former colleagues) that he is confident that his former friend and supervisor Comey “has his back.” I would count, however, on Comey being motivated to solve the Fall 2001 anthrax incidents. The priority is to catch the bad guys. It is not at all surprising that in a difficult mystery there are missteps that need to be corrected. That comes with the job. No commentator has shown that in the rush of events he or she could have done better.

      The FBI are the good guys.

      Ayman Zawahiri is the murderous bad guy who kills innocent civilians.

      In a robust democracy, sometimes the pursuit of justice takes nimble footing to stay on track.

      I Broke Into an FBI Office and Took Every Document. Here’s Why.
      By Bonnie Raines at 3:50pm

    • DXer said

      Suspect in USS Cole Bombing Arrested
      By Munir Ahmad
      Associated Press Writer
      Sunday, Oct. 28, 2001; 9:30 a.m. EST

      ISLAMABAD, Pakistan AP) – Pakistani authorities arrested and turned over to American custody a Yemeni microbiology student wanted in connection with the bombing of the USS Cole, Pakistani officials confirmed Sunday.

      Jamil Qasim Saeed Mohammed, 27, is suspected of being an active member of the al-Qaida network run by Osama bin Laden, the alleged organizer of the Sept. 11 terror attacks on the United States, according to government officials, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity.

      Mohammed was secretly turned over to U.S. authorities – bypassing normal extradition and deportation proceedings – as part of a broad investigation of Arab students suspected of having ties to al-Qaida, the Washington Post said Sunday in an account of the handover.

      U.S. officials in Pakistan declined comment, as did a senior FBI official in Washington, the newspaper said.

      Pakistani officials told the AP the handover had taken place Thursday at the airport in the Pakistani port city of Karachi. Airport authorities, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the plane arrived from Amman, Jordan.

      Mohammad, who arrived in Pakistan in 1993, was a student in the microbiology department of Karachi University, classmates and university officials said. A classmate, who declined to be named, said he had abandoned his studies.

      An official at the university, also speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed that Mohammad’s school records were examined last week by the authorities.

      A Pakistani presidential spokesman, Maj. Gen. Rashid Quereshi, denied any knowledge of the handover. However, he said that “recently some U.S. security officials had visited Pakistan to share information about some Arab suspects.”

      “We helped them in finding clues to combat terrorism,” he added.

      Officials at Pakistan’s spy agency, Inter-Services Intelligence, confirmed Sunday that Mohammed had been turned over to U.S. officials.

      Mohammed is the first person known to have been arrested outside Yemen for the October 2000 attack on the Cole as it refueled in the Yemeni port of Aden. Seventeen sailors were killed and 37 injured when suicide bombers brought a boat alongside the warship and detonated explosives.

      Eight suspects were arrested in Yemen and are awaiting trial.

    • DXer said

      The Cole bombing was discussed in the condominum of my one-time Facebook Friend Yazid Sufaat.

      January 5-8, 2000: Al-Qaeda Summit in Malaysia Discusses 9/11 and Cole Plots; CIA Has Malaysians Monitor It

      Attendees of the Malaysian summit. Top row, from left: Nawaf Alhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Middle row, from left: Khallad bin Attash, Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, Hambali. Bottom row, from left: Yazid Sufaat, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, Abu Bara al-Taizi. [Source: FBI]
      About a dozen of Osama bin Laden’s trusted followers hold a secret, “top-level al-Qaeda summit” in the city of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. [CNN, 8/30/2002; SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE, 9/27/2002] According to an unnamed senior CIA official, before the summit started, the CIA learned that “11 young guys” were going to attend, and “young guys” is slang for operatives traveling.[BAMFORD, 2008, PP. 18] Plans for the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole (see October 12, 2000) and the 9/11 attacks are discussed.[USA TODAY, 2/12/2002; CNN, 8/30/2002] At the request of the CIA, the Malaysian Secret Service monitors the summit and then passes the information on to the US (seeJanuary 5-8, 2000 and Shortly After).

      Yazid Sufaat – Sufaat is a Malaysian who owns the condominium where the summit is held. He is also a trained biologist and is said to be a leading figure in al-Qaeda’s attempts to get a biological or chemical weapon. [NEW YORK TIMES, 1/31/2002; NEWSWEEK, 6/2/2002] Malaysian officials also recognize Sufaat from summit surveillance photos, as he is a long-time Malaysian resident (see Shortly After January 8, 2000). [NEW STRAITS TIMES, 2/10/2002] A possibility to expose the 9/11 plot through Sufaat’s presence at this summit will later be missed in September 2000 (see September-October 2000).

      Khallad bin Attash – Khallad bin Attash, a “trusted member of bin Laden’s inner circle,” is in charge of bin Laden’s bodyguards, and serves as bin Laden’s personal intermediary at least for the USS Cole bombing. [NEWSWEEK, 9/20/2001 ] He is also thought to be a “mastermind” of that attack. Attash is reportedly planning to be one of the 9/11 hijackers, but will be unable to get a US visa. [9/11 COMMISSION, 6/16/2004, PP. 8] US intelligence had been aware of his identity as early as 1995. [US CONGRESS, 9/18/2002] A possibility to expose the 9/11 plot through bin Attash’s presence at this summit will be missed in January 2001 (see January 4, 2001). Bin Attash had been previously arrested in Yemen for suspected terror ties, but was let go (see Summer 1999). [CONTEMPORARY SOUTHEAST ASIA, 12/1/2002] He will be captured in Pakistan by the US in April 2003 (see April 29, 2003). In 2008, Newsweek will report that bin Attash confessed during interrogation that, while staying at Sufaat’s condominium, he and Alhazmi talked “about the possibility of hijacking planes and crashing them or holding passengers as hostages.”[NEWSWEEK, 12/16/2008]

      Another opportunity to expose the 9/11 plot through bin al-Shibh’s presence at this summit will be missed in June. It appears bin al-Shibh and Almihdhar are directly involved in the attack on the USS Cole in October 2000 (see October 10-21, 2000). [GUARDIAN, 10/15/2001; WASHINGTON POST, 7/14/2002;NEWSWEEK, 9/4/2002]

      Dhiren Barot – Dhiren Barot (a.k.a. Abu Eissa al-Hindi) is a British citizen of Indian descent. According to a 2006 Observer article, Barot “is not believed to have been present” at the summit meetings. However, he does go to Kuala Lumpur during the time of the summit with summit attendee bin Attash. And shortly after the summit, Barot holds meetings with Hambali. It will later be reported that Barot is sent by KSM to New York City in early 2001 to case potential targets there, although whether this is part of the 9/11 plot or some other plot is unclear (see May 30, 2001). Barot will be arrested in 2004 in Britain for plotting attacks there, and sentenced to 30 years in prison (see August 3, 2004). [OBSERVER, 12/12/2006]


      Key Cole participants were at Yazid Sufaat’s condo. Sufaat has never provided any corroborating evidence supporting his claim that he was not there when the the evidence indicates that he was.

      If Mr. Comey is to be taken at his word (and I do), then he should seek to have Yazid extradited to the United States.

      Dhiren Barot was joined by Adnan El-Shukrijumah in 2001 in casing New York City targets.

      There is solid evidence that El-Shukrijumah travelled to the United States immediately after 9/11.

      Both he and Yazid Sufaat lived with KSM in Kandahar during this period — a time after which Sufaat had spent months at a local lab working to develop anthrax as a lethal weapon.

      Mr. Comey, you should seek the extradition of Yazid Sufaat to the United States as part of seeing that the victims of the Cole bombing and anthrax mailings see justice.

      I grew up with the slogan of the Virginia-based U.S.S. Accokeek over my bed: Not Impossible, Just Difficult.

      Be the little engine that could.

      • DXer said

        Classified interrogation reports explain that after 9/11 Yazid Sufaat was proposing flying aircraft into an aircraft carrier, KITTY HAWK as it passed by Singapore.

        Kenneth Conboy in his book reports that while awaiting for additional equipment to be shipped, Yazid Sufaat

        “had been giving biology lessons to two al-Qaeda apprentices, a Sudanese and a Palestinian who previously worked as a technician at a medical lab in Karachi. As both apprentices had graduated from a Pakistan university in Hyderabad, they suggested that Sufaat enroll as a student at that university’s biology department; using his student status as cover, he could discreetly continue their anthrax testing in Pakistan.

        But Sufaat yearned to return to Southeast Asia. Thinking aloud with Hambali, he suggested the possibility of shifting the anthrax program to Indonesia. He also mentioned a media report that the aircraft carrier KITTY HAWK — which was the centerpiece of the U.S. naval battle group launching strikes against Afghanistan from the Arabian Sea — would be passing by Singapore in the coming months en route to its home port in Japan; resurrecting KSM’s earlier plan to recruit Indonesian commercial pilots, Sufaat talked up using a suicide operative to crash an airliner into the U.S. warship.”

    • DXer said

      According to an April 2002 news report, Yazid Sufaat admitted to knowing the Cole bombing plot participant, Khallad bin Attash, who was being refitted for a prosthetic leg in December 1999. Attash moved into Yazid’s condo in early January a few days before the meeting with the 911 planners at the condo — and just a day before key 911 hijacker Nawaf arrived.

      Planning for the attack was discussed at the Kuala Lumpur al-Qaeda Summit shortly after the attempt, which was held from 5 to 8 January 2000. Along with other plotters, it was attended by future 11 September hijacker Khalid al-Mihdhar, who then traveled to San Diego, California, where he established a close relationship with “9/11 imam” Anwar al-Awlaki, who was later linked to numerous plots and attacks, including the Fort Hood shootings and the “underwear bomber” of 2009 and put on a targeted killing list by President Obama as a terrorist threat. On 10 June 2000, Mihdhar left San Diego to visit his wife in Yemen at a house also used as a communications hub for al-Qaeda.[13][14][15] After the bombing, Yemeni Prime Minister Abdul Karim al-Iryani reported that Mihdhar had been one of the key planners of the attack and had been in the country at the time of the attacks.[16] He would later return to the United States to participate in 9/11 on American Airlines Flight 77, which flew into the Pentagon, killing 184 people.[


      By May 2008, all defendants convicted in the attack had escaped from prison or been freed by Yemeni officials.[23] However, on 30 June 2008, Brig. Gen. Thomas W. Hartmann, legal advisor to the U.S. Military tribunal system, announced charges are being sworn against Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, a Saudi Arabian citizen of Yemeni descent, who has been held at themilitary prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, since 2006. According to the Pentagon, the charges have been defined as “organizing and directing” the bombing of the USS Cole. The charges still must be approved by a Department of Defense official who oversees military commissions set up for terrorism suspects. The Pentagon will seek the death penalty.[24]

      Several individuals have been described as the USS Cole bombing mastermind.


      According to CNN, Tawfiq bin Attash, who was captured in Pakistan 2003 and is currently being held in U.S. custody at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, was “considered the mastermind” of the bombing. …

      [Wikileaks detainee report for bin Attash states:

      “Detainee’s involvement in the bombing of the U.S.S. COLE primarily involved acquiring the explosives used in the operation.” …

      “The detainee received English language training from KSM including how to read flight schedules as well as cultural information on the United States.”

      “MSK said that detainee had extensive experience and familiarity with the region and arrived in Malaysia ahead of the others to conduct preliminary surveillance regarding flight procedures on US aircraft flying between Malasyia, Singapore, Hong Kong, and Thailand….

    • DXer said

      The Cole bombing and Attash were mentioned in the press reporting that Yazid Sufaat had been allowed to go free.

      Terror Watch: A Germ Warfare Guru Goes Free
      By Mark Hosenball

      A U.S.-trained Al Qaeda microbiologist has been released from jail by the Malaysian government, prompting alarm among American counterterrorism officials.

      “This individual is considered dangerous,” said one official, referring to the recent decision to free Yazid Sufaat, a notorious Qaeda operative who once oversaw the group’s germ-warfare efforts. The official declined to be identified talking about sensitive information.

      Safaat had been in Malaysian custody since December 2001, when he was arrested because of his alleged involvement with Jemaah Islamiah, a radical South Asian terror group closely linked with Al Qaeda. But two weeks ago, Malaysia’s interior minister, Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar, announced that Sufaat and five other detained Islamic militants were being freed because “they are no longer a threat and will no longer pose a threat to public order.” Albar added that Sufaat “has been rehabilitated and can return to society.”

      Malaysia privately informed the Bush administration that its legal authority to detain Sufaat had expired but promised Washington that he would be kept under close observation, the U.S. official indicated. But counterterror officials here expressed doubt that Sufaat has abandoned his radical Qaeda views or his desire to attack the United States with biological weapons. They also point out that Sufaat played an assisting role in planning the 9/11 attacks. He hosted two of the hijackers along with two other veteran Al Qaeda operatives at a terror “summit” in Kuala Lumpur in January 2000.

      The timing of Sufaat’s release was especially awkward for U.S. officials. The Qaeda scientist was freed on Dec. 4—the day after a congressionally mandated commission on weapons of mass destruction released a public report warning of the risk of a biological weapons attack in the next five years.

      “There’s a troubling irony that this happened the day after our report,” said Bob Graham, the former Florida senator and chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who served as co-chairman of the bioweapons panel. (In an interview with NEWSWEEK the day the report was released, Graham said he was particularly concerned about “the degree of risk associated with a biological weapon … The ubiquitous nature of pathogens and the increasing lethality of both natural and synthetic pathogens led our commission to conclude it’s more likely that an attack will come biologically rather than nuclear.”)

      The son of a rubber tapper, Sufaat studied at Malaysia’s prestigious Royal Military College and won a scholarship to California State University in Sacramento, where he earned a degree in biological sciences in 1987. Upon returning to Malaysia, he founded a profitable laboratory analysis company. Sometime in the early 1990s—reportedly at the insistence of his wife—he became increasingly devout. He began spending time with militant Islamic teachers and soon became a devoted and committed follower of Jemaah Islamiah and its radical leader, Hambali (he’s known by just the one name).

      According to the U.S. government’s 9/11 Commission report, in January 2000, two of the 9/11 hijackers, Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi, visited Kuala Lumpur, the Malaysian capital, for what amounted to a planning meeting for the September 2001 attacks. At Hambali’s request, Sufaat made his apartment available for the meeting. One of the other participants was Walid bin-Attash, known as Khallad, a Qaeda operative who planned the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen. He was later captured and charged as a 9/11 co-conspirator. Khallad told U.S. interrogators that, while staying at Sufaat’s apartment, he and Alhazmi talked “about the possibility of hijacking planes and crashing them or holding passengers as hostages.”

      Later in 2000, Sufaat hosted a visit to Kuala Lumpur by another figure linked to the 9/11 hijackers: Zacharias Moussaoui, the wayward and eccentric would-be terrorist from France who the US government claimed was going to be a 9/11 hijacker. Captured 9/11 participants subsequently said Moussaoui was considered too erratic by Al-Qaeda’s leaders to participate in the plot.

      The 9/11 Commission report also details Sufaat’s efforts to make weapons for Al Qaeda. The terror group’s leaders sought Hambali’s help in finding a scientist to “take over” Al Qaeda’s biological-weapons program. Hambali introduced Sufaat to Osama bin Laden’s deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri. In 2001, the report says, Sufaat spent “several months attempting to cultivate anthrax for Al Qaeda in a laboratory” he helped set up near the Kandahar airport in Afghanistan.

      The Malaysians’s release of Sufaat points up the difficulties the outgoing Bush administration and incoming Obama team face in pressing foreign governments—friendly and not so friendly—to keep Islamic militants off the streets, or at least under close surveillance.

  4. DXer said

    I believe Stephen Little’s full deposition now can be accessed at dropbox.

    In case that link doesn’t work, I am hoping there will be a link at cryptome tomorrow. As I recall, only the first page is upside down.

    Click to access LittleDeposition.pdf

  5. DXer said

    At page 56, DOJ ‘s attorney asks Mr. Little:

    Q Does a practice of a scientist at USAMRIID working after hours late at nights or one weekends raise suspicion about their conduct?
    A No.

  6. DXer said

    Mr. Little at page 49 states:

    “I don’t think he had the knowledge of how to do it. We, um, to my knowledge it had never been discussed in our group. He had never discussed anything similar in that direction to me. Most of the work that he we had been doing was vaccine development. We didn’t have the equipment to do the aerosol sprays. It was all, you know, liquid. You know, unless there’s evidence that is being sat on by the FBI, I don’t see how he could have done it at USAMRIID.”

    • DXer said

      At page 55:

      DOJ’s MR. TARANTO:

      “Q You expressed a view or opinion that you believe it’s unlikely that Dr. Ivins is the anthrax letter attacker.
      A Very unlikely.
      Q And you gave a number of reasons for that, that you explained in some detail. Do you believe, do you have a belief or opinion concerning whether anyone else at USAMRIID would have been involved in the anthrax letters, sending out the letters or purposely using anthrax from USAMRIID for biological terrorism, somebody at USAMRIID?
      A. No. Not that I know….
      A. No, I, I wouldn’t know of anybody. I — to me it’s just inconceivable.”

  7. DXer said

    Page 42-44 of his depo:

    Q. Now, have you had the opportunity to review what’s in the public domain as far as the FBI’s analysis of the anthrax mailings case?
    A Yes.
    Q And do you have any opinion as to whether or not Dr. Ivins was the perpetrator?
    A. I have an opinion, yes.
    Q And what is that opinion?
    A He’s not guilty.
    Q And what do you base that on?
    A The time would be spent in preparing the amount of material required for what I’ve heard is in the letters would have taken him probably at least a year with the equipment that he had just to grow it, possibly purify it. He had no skill, knowledge or way to dry it down.
    Q Why wouldn’t he have any skill, knowledge or way — now , you threw three things at me there. Let’s talk about the skill first. Why do you say he wouldn’t have the sklll to do it or couldn’t have developed the skill to do it?
    A He’s never done it before, to my knowledge, I have never seen it done before in the Institute. The piece of equipment that the FBI identified initially as a lyophilizer sits outside my laboratory in B5. There’s no way that he could by himself pushed that thing down to BSL3, put it in the airlock, take it out of the airlock, push it down to a laboratory. The thing is as big as a refrigerator. He would have had to pick it up, that part, to prevent contamination of the entire suite. He could not have done that and put that part in a biological safety cabinet. it’s too big.

    And to reverse it back the other way, he would have had to put it in airlock, schedule the decon, what people would, you know, want to know, it had been done on the weekend, they don’t decon things on weekends. They’d have to clear the airlock before it could be moved out. Then you would have to move it back down to where it was from our laboratory.

  8. DXer said

    At page 38 of his civil deposition, Mr. Schuler asks Stephen’s recollection of the issue of contamination early on:

    Q Okay. Tell me what your recollection is that you have of those events.

    A. Um, one of Bruce’s co-workers was involved with opening the letter, one of the letters, the anthrax letters, and that event occurred in a, in Suite AR-1 in a lab that was done there. When the concern was voiced that this may be a true event, that letter was moved from, what I understand, to Suite B3, which is a BSL-3 lab.

    Q. Was this the December of ’01 event?

    A I don’t know the date. I don’t know the date. I heard about all of this after the fact.

    Q. Who was the coworker that opened the envelope?

    A. Christy Friend. She did not open the envelope. She was present in the room when the envelope was opened.

    Q Do you know who opened the envelope?

    A. Dr. Zell. That’s what I heard. I was not there.

    • DXer said

      At page 39:

      “A Is that Bruce was concerned that an envelope with possible anthrax spores was opened theoretically on the cold side, in AR-1, with a technician that was in the room. He, from what I understand — again it’s all secondhand — he made an inquiry as to possible contamination for where Christy worked in the office where he shared with her. He asked to do a survey. And I understand it was denied. He went ahead and did it and got reprimanded for it. But apparently —

      Q. Did a survey to see if there was contamination, is that what you’re talking about?

      Q Yes.

      A — date, I don’t know the date but there was at one point in time and relative to this event that they did a survey on the cold side of bacteriology division. …”

  9. DXer said

    At deposition, after an objection on the grounds of law enforcement privilege, plaintiff’s counsel Schuler asks Mr. Little about a statement given April 3, 2003.

    “OP, four zeros and two eights, four zeros and two — 87, 87, 88.” (Page 34)

    “They interviewed me several times.” (Page 36)

  10. DXer said

    At page 24 of his civil deposition, Mr. Little explains the division of responsibility on the projects with which he worked with Dr. Ivins:

    “I would establish the protocol. I would set it up. I would conduct a lot of the immunizations, if it was on the cold side, you know, through my technician. I would do the serology and do the analysis in that I would schedule with aerobiology and with Bruce for doing the exposure if it was by aerosol or with Bruce if it was being, for injection.”

    Mr. Little stopped going into the B-3 suite in years ago for medical reasons and so Dr. Ivins did whatever was necessary in the B3.

    At page 25, Mr. Little explained that he would see Bruce daily:

    “How frequently would you see him, let’s take it from the ’92, ’93 time period through, let’s say 2001 when the anthrax attacks occurred?

    A. Probably daily. We were in the same block of offices.

    Q. Were you, well, when you say the same block of offices, was, were you his suite supervisor or did you just, did you have offices together in the same area?

    A. Those are sort of two different questions.

    Q. They are. Let me ask you, where was your office relative to Dr. Ivins?

    A. Around the corner.

    Q. Okay. Within twenty feet?

    A. Never measured it but possibly.

    Q. Okay. So you would see him daily during work hours?

    A. Yes.”

    • DXer said

      Mr. Little would go on TDY with Bruce.

      Q Okay. How often would they occur?
      A Once a year. Bioport was more frequently for a period of time.
      Q Would Pat Fellows go with you on these trips?
      A On occasion.
      Q. How about Dr. Welkos?
      A. Yes.
      Q. How about — I always want to say — Mara Linscott, would she go with you?
      A. I, I don’t recall. I don’t recall her on a trip.
      Q And was your relationship with Dr. Ivins strictly business or would you consider him a friend?
      A A friend.
      Q Besides the, seeing him daily at business and going on these business trips with him, would you, what type of socialization would you have with Dr. Ivins?
      A Very, very infrequent.
      Q Even though infrequent what might it be?
      A Might be, um, Dr. Worsham having a gathering at her house. …

      A I’m just trying to find out again the parameters of your relationship with Dr. Ivins. Did you, I mean did you go to the same church as he did or did you see him in any other environment other than the work environment and the infrequent social gathering connected with work?
      A. No.

      Pages 26-27 of civil depo.

  11. DXer said

    Mr. Little walked counsel through withdrawal of virulent Ames for his experiments with the rabbits, as well as withdrawals for other purposes.

    Q. Mr. Little, we have had marked as Exhibit 90 a document that’s Bates stamped Army 02–20387 to 010388. I hope I said the number correctly. It’s entitled U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases, Reference Material, Receipt Record, and it mentions Bruce Ivins and USAMRIID part number 1029. Do you know what this document is?

    A This is a way that Bruce kept track of the amount of material that he had on as a running material.

    Q All right. There are various amounts that are listed. There’s a column for Amount N and then entries on amounts used. And there, by amounts used by there are various parentheticals to the right of that. Do you recognize any of these entries to the right that are in parentheticals for the amount used?

    A. Yes, I do.

    Q. Do you recognize in particular the one, that well, actually, could go through these and tell us for the period prior to October of 2001 the ones that you recognize?

    A. The ones I recognize right off would be the 75 mil, in the parenthesis, it’s B003 and I think that says part one or number one. That was my experiment. That was when I requested spores for an aerosol challenge for rabbits. The one below it, 40 mils and part two, and I don’t know if I can read and recognize any of those. The 60 mils on the cover, the other side, part three, that’s another 0003, it looks like, and then the 50 mills is another one for me too, July ’01. Those would be the ones that would be pertinent to myself.

    Q. There’s also a reference here on the first page, 6 milliliters, Covance, 8 milliters, Covance. Do you recognize what Covance is?

    Covance is a laboratory animal facility in Pennsylvania, Denver, Pennsylvania.

    Q. Would those be amount sent to Covance?

    A They would — I don’t think Covance would take hot, you know, infectious material. It might be that he’s removing 6 mls and 8 mls at those timeframes and irradiating the spores or killing the spores in some way and sending them that way. I’m, I’m I’m guessing. I don’t know.

    Q. There’s also a reference, 40 milliliters, Peter — I’m not sure of the name S-C-H-U-L-E, it looks like it might be. Is that familiar to you?

    A. No.

    Q. All right. The next reference down from that is a hundred milliliters for Bioport, rabbit challenge.

    A. Bioport is currently Emergent.

    Q. Right.

    A. It’s the vaccine production facility for AVA.

    Q. And would reflect an amount sent to Bioport?

    A. I’m not sure. I’m — I think that might be part of the rabbit experiment that we were involved in. I’m not sure of the date, though. I’m — that could be

    around the timeframe that we were working with Bioport in evaluating their vaccine lots.

    Q. And did Bioport do work with anthrax material at their Bioport lab?

    A. They did, yes.

    Q. There’s also, further down on the last line on that first page there’s also a reference to Rick Lyons. Is that University of New Mexico laboratory?

    A. I believe it is.

    Q. And then on the following page at the top, near the top there’s a reference of 90 milliliters on May 1st, 2001 and 50 milliliters on June 15th, 2001 for amount used for Bob Hunt, Battelle?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Do you know what that is, or what Battelle is, first of all?

    A Battelle is a, um, I believe it’s a private, private company that contracts out to do research. Some of the work that we had, I know early on had talked to them about. They were doing anthrax research. I don’t know what this is for except maybe they were wanting material to do a challenge. There was a point in time where Battelle was having a problem — and I don’t know the date on this when they had the problem — they were having problems with a fermenter.

  12. DXer said

    My high regard and esteem for all these USAMRIID scientists is confirmed upon reading their verbatim transcribed comments. We should all be so lucky to have such capable colleagues at work.

    At this civil deposition, Mr. Jeffrey Miller present, and Major Maloney of the United States Army, Legal Services Agency, Litigation Division participated by telephone. It is beyond outrageous that USAMRIID FOIA would be an obstacle in getting people on the same page. Command should order that all the civil depositions (not subject to a protective order) be uploaded to the USAMRIID FOIA Electronic Reading Room without further delay. Jeffrey has a copy of the depositions and if he says he doesn’t he can say that in an affidavit in due course.

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